Independent Fundamental Baptist Forums

Just wanted to see what Titus 2:5 meant to some of you on here.  ??  I know what it means to me (and my family), but in the days we live in I've noticed this verse & many like it seem to be changing... now of course nothing changes in God's mind... it's all the same to him, but today I'm noticing many of my IFB friends have a new interpretation of this verse -- as do many preachers today.  Just wanted to see what you all have to say on the matter.

Titus 2:5 - To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

I agree with the verse 100%.  What are preacher's saying about it today?  For me the KJV is the standard that I try to live by in order to please God and make life better for our family.  Unfortunately I'm not perfect and sometimes have a hard time following this verse in particular, but I always try and am always trying to improve.

Yeah, I wondered what others thought.... we've always been taught & found this verse to mean all those things you stated (I completely agree), but we've always thought it was clear that it also mean that women should be keepers at home (stay at home wives & moms).  I am suprised the last 5+ yrs this has changed for many ppl and especially for many preachers... we've heard it preached now that moms can & should work.  Wow, I was surprised & actually heartbroken that this is being pushed & has as of RECENT been pushed on me (not by my husband but by a preacher & friends) -- my husband takes all the same stands I do for the Lord.  It seems it would be hard to be the keeper AT home if you're not at home.  I understand there are times when a person (woman) has to go to work b/c things happen, but I also believe if you pray & ask God to help you stay at home he can work that out in time b/c that's ultimately what he wants for women.  If a woman goes to work she will mostly likely have to be under a man boss & then she is under another man other than her husband -- and truly only God & the husband are to be over a woman... it seems a conflict of interest to have some other man over you.  There are a multitude of reasons I would not want women in the workplace -- these are just a couple I find most important.  This is what I've gleened from all my Bible readings & years in IFB Churches... but I'm interested in hearing more of what ppl on here have to say as well.  Of course this is my conviction based on what I've learned & what God has placed in my heart.  I'm not judgemental & I understand we are all at different walks in our christian life... and we must allow God to teach & convict.  Thanks for posting on this.

The keepers at home part of the verse is a little unclear I think, because it doesn't explicitly say stay at home, although it does seem to imply it.  I think that a marriage is a partnership... I do whatever my husband tells me, but at the same time he treats me with respect and still helps around the house, although he does expect me to do most of it.  I work and go to school so it is hard for me to come home and take care of the baby, cook, do homework, clean, and still have time for my husband, but we make it work somehow.  I consider keeping a clean house as part of my duty to be a help meat for my husband because that is what he needs from me is a clean home.

I'm sorry to hear that people are pushing this on you.  I really dislike it when people try to push their beliefs onto other people.  Discussing beliefs is fine in my opinion, as we do here on the forums, but pushing beliefs or trying to make people feel bad for not doing something isn't ok and gives Christians a bad name and turns non-believers off of faith I think.

I believe strongly in doing whatever you feel that God has convicted you to do.  This is especially important because God has different plans for different people and different families, so I feel that he would convict different people differently to get them to do what he needs them to do.

I work because I need to and because I like being out of the house, and it is what my husband needs and wants from me, but sometimes I do wish I could be a work from home mom.  I will go wherever God leads me to though.  I believe he opens doors where he wants us and closes them where he doesn't.

Much luck to you with your situation at church.  I would encourage you to stand firm in your beliefs even if you stand alone.

Thanks for posting.  Hopefully some more forum members will pick up the conversation and give their thoughts as well.  By the way, if you know any IFB's who are into online communities we'd love to have them here!  The more people we have the more active the conversations will be!

In addition to my post above I wanted to add something.  I was discussing this verse in Titus with my husband and he shared some verses from Proverbs with me that I wanted to share as they seem relevant: Proverbs 31:10-31 (From KJV of course)

"Pro 31:10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.
Pro 31:11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.
Pro 31:12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
Pro 31:13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.
Pro 31:14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
Pro 31:15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
Pro 31:16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
Pro 31:17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.
Pro 31:18 She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.
Pro 31:19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.
Pro 31:20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
Pro 31:21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.
Pro 31:22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.
Pro 31:23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
Pro 31:24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.
Pro 31:25 Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.
Pro 31:26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
Pro 31:27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.
Pro 31:28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.
Pro 31:29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.
Pro 31:30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.
Pro 31:31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates."

The verses I highlighted in red seem to suggest that the virtuous woman is out working, and the verses not in red show she is still at home being a keeper, taking care of her husband and family and servants.  But she's also out buying and planting fields, making clothes and selling them, delivering them, bringing food home.    Verse 30 suggests she is a woman who fears the Lord and in verse 28 her husband is praising her.  I just thought this was interesting when my husband showed it to me.  I'm not sure if there's any other verses to support a woman working or if there are other verses to support a woman staying at home.  My husband also shared a verse with me that said that whatever you do, do it unto the Lord.  So if you're staying at home for the Lord, then it's ok.  And if other people are going to work for the Lord that's ok too I guess.

Other forum members, what do you think on the topic?  This is your chance to share your views!

I believe that for a wife to stay at home, or not to stay at home is up to the husband and wife, not the preacher.  If he keeps trying to push himself on you, stand up to him together with your husband and tell him that you feel convicted to stay home and take care of your family from there.  Don't let people push you around and dictate to you the way your family lives.  I agree with jatomlinson when she says that pushy people give religion a bad name.  I encounter people at work that think all Christians are crazy just because they encountered a few pushy ones.

Those verses in proverbs are a wonderful example of how a 'virtuous' woman should act to her family!  It shows how she takes care of them... she's not afraid of winter because she's already thought ahead and clothed them all warmly.  And her own clothing is strength and honor... just wonderful!  It's like the armor of Christ, only the virtuous woman also wears armor of strength and honor.

Wow, I'm always so fascinated learning about others' perspectives; it is always very cool to hear how other people see things. As I read this topic, I assumed that people would be interested in discussing what the 'keepers at home' meant from their perspective, but I was completely wrong in how I thought people would see it. I thought I'd share my perspective, because I think it's interesting in how it contrasts to what is already discussed here. I'll try not to be too long-winded, but I apologize in advance because I know I tend to go on too long when I try to include everything I think is relevant.

So in the beginning (see, I'm already looking like I'm going to go on way too long God charged Adam with caring for the Garden of Eden:

Gen 2:15 - And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

At this point, the Hebrew words used are abad (dress) and shamar (keep). abad (Pronounced more like abba-dah if I'm writing it right) can be thought of as meaning to till or cultivate or more generally to work and in working to serve; a Hebrew would understand this word to mean that Adam is being commanded to serve as the terms of the dominion God is giving him over Earth. Shamar, on the other hand, is rendered in English to us as 'keep', but doesn't mean 'upkeep', think of the synonym for a fortress, a keep; Shamar implies to guard and protect when it says 'keep.' God uses these two terms together to contrast two actions, one rather humble involving toil and service and the other being quite honorable and virtuous as a kind of defender.



Anyways, this is important because these two words are used separately  throughout the Old Testament where appropriate, but are paired together when speaking about the ark of the covenant and the temple. To the Hebrews hearing this, it was clear that the comparison between the ark and Eden was meant to emphasize it's holiness and perfection; being told to abad and shamar is to given a holy charge to serve and protect; something that was reserved to specially called people (like Moses) or groups of people (the Levites) but always this holy job applied to men.



So moving onto the New Testament, I tend to like to view the Pastoral Epistles (First and Second Timothy and Titus) because they were written as advise to individual pastors to advise the recipients in dealing with the group of people they were charged with working with (as opposed to many of Paul's other writings written to large groups of people).  Particularly as it applies to this, this part of Titus is very similar in nature to part of First Timothy in the instructions Paul was giving Timothy and Titus in learning to work with various sub-groups among the Ephesians (whom Timothy was charged with teaching) and the people of Crete (Titus'). It's worth looking at these letters together because though they are all written by Paul they address different issues in different ways, Paul was amazing at understanding different cultures and knowing what issues were relevant to emphasize and furthermore he understood the differences in Timothy's Jewish heritage and Titus's Gentile background.

In any case, this leads to a significant difference that you've hit on with this verse, and I'm going to pair it with it's counterpart in Timothy (the emphasis in bold is my own):

Titus 2:5 - To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
1 Timothy 5:14 - I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.

Now here is where I have a problem with the translation; and it is not because I find any fault in the translators, it is simply that English is far too different from the Hebrew of the Old Testament and the Greek of the New Testament for any translation to fully convey all the meaning so it becomes important to look into where these words came from. Both of these verses form compound words from 'oikos-' which is the Greek for 'house'. However, the verse in Titus combines it with 'ouros-' which means a watcher or guardian, thus forming the word 'oikouros'. Like I said, 'keepers at home' had already lost something in translation despite the efforts of the translators simply because there was no English equivalent for oikouros that could convey the sense of a watchman or guardian so we get a very domestic sounding 'keepers at home' which in modern terms is even more mundane than in the 17th century, they at least had a cultural awareness of a castle/fortress while to our modern American minds brings up housekeeping.

Now in Timothy when we see 'guide the house', The same 'oikos-' is now paired with the Greek 'despotes' which has the same literal meaning as our English 'despot', meaning to rule with absolute and unquestionable authority over (although it doesn't have the negative connotation that we attach to despot, it's only a modern thing for words like 'monarch' or 'despot' to imply a cruelness in its very nature; traditionally the words only speak of authority). Thus, the word 'oikodespotes' is formed. And here I think the translators struggled over how they wanted to best render these words in English, because 'despotes' comes out as 'Master' in several places all throughout the New Testament and specifically this exact word of 'oikodespotes' is translated (rightly so) in other places as 'Master of the house' (Matthew 10:25; Luke 13:25 and 14:21). A 'master of the house' in this sense certainly didn't imply that they always stayed at the house, but emphasized an authority over leading the house. Yet when applied to a female in 1Timothy 5:14 the power and authority is for some reason translated as a 'guide' rather than a 'master'; I think it is kinda fair to say that the English translators bowed to social pressure in a male dominated society and couldn't give the same authority to a woman as was given a man even though this word choice on Paul's part specifies that a woman should 'rule the house' not 'guide the house'.

Now, it's worth noting that unlike in the OT where abad and shamar are deliberately paired together to emphasize a holy job to serve and protect, this wasn't the case with oikouros and oikodespotes, they were used in two separate letters written to two separate individuals as advise for working with two separate people; it is only later that they were compiled with the other writings to form what we know today as the Bible. So no, I won't say that these two words were paired in the same way to specify this same holy charge. Still, Paul never wrote without very deliberate significance and intention (at least never wrote inspired scripture without significance and intention) and as an educated Jew was very aware of the significance of the Hebrew scriptures (the Old Testament) and that he saw both of these Greek words as meaningful in the same way that both of the Hebrew words were meaningful he is clearly given women a charge that previously had only been applied to men. Actually, one of the big thing that was lead to the growth of Christianity early on was the role women were given in it compared to the pagan religions surrounding them, so Paul's emphasizing women's partnership with men in ruling the household is important. In that sense, I'm not telling you that it isn't important to work to keep your house clean, nice and presentable, but be careful when applying modern terms like 'housekeeper' and putting only a one-dimensional and bland meaning to it when Paul labored with very special words to show something colorful and dynamic; a leader, a guardian, a master and a protector.



Anyways, sorry if I went on a bit long, but I think we lose a lot reading the Bible in English unless we remember the vast and rich history that is contained like riddles in the languages and I find it way to fascinating to look into these puzzles in the same way that various translators have throughout the years. I'd love to hear further thoughts anyone has on the subject.

By the way, I saw the term 'help meat' a few times, what does it mean or refer to?

This was another Church, not our current Church where the preacher told us women could & should work. PTL it wasn't our church now!  lol  Our current church encourages women to stay at home, but is not critical if you work... they merely teach the truths of the Bible and allow God to convict:)

And I have been taught and personally believe that the business they are talking about in those verses  @jatomlinson11 is a home based business.  Sure she or her husband may deliver those things, but she's doing those things at home so she can still keep her kids w/ her at home & keep up her home & be there for her hubby when he gets home.

Here's what I've been taught & what God has placed in my heart (my husband's too) -- If you go out into the work world as a woman you will 99.9% of the time have a male boss... that is a conflict of interest b/c we are only to be in submission to our own husbands, and of course in church our preacher... but being under another man in the workplace does not seem like a good idea.  Also, if your husband is coming home to an empty house -- meaning you may still be at work -- that's not a great idea.  Your husband should come home to his wife and kids, the house as tidy as possible and dinner on the table -- along w/ a warm, loving greeting from his wife.  If you are working, you may have to work late & won't be there to do these things.  Next, women going into the workplace is the reason why men don't make as much on the whole as they use to.  Men use to be able to be the provider of the home... but now women are competing for men's jobs....  this puts the world outta whack, not to mention the home.  More moms are going to work, more kids are going into daycare -- marriages are crumbling, kids are doing more drugs and horrible things and families are falling apart -- kids are being lost in this shuffle and get hurt the most. 

I believe if anyone wants to stay at home and care for their kids and home and be there for their husband when they get home that if you pray & ask God to bless & and help -- HE will provide a way for you to stay home.  I've seen it time & time again.  Of course ALL of this is what I believe based on the Bible, sermons I've heard at Church and what God has convicted me about.  I've prayed long and hard about this.  I use to have a very high paying career years ago (10+ yrs ago) but God convicted us to step out on faith and allow David to lead the home & be the bread winner and head of the home in EVERY way.  How can a husband truly be the head if the wife is out earning the living too? 

Just some food for thought again.  I'm not critical of those women who work... but I'm seeing more & more that the old values that were in the IFB Church are fading... this use to be one of those things that many IFB-ers cleaved unto tightly.... but most all my IFB friends work now.  Only a handful of them stay at home.

@Merciful, hopefully that addressed some of your questions as well.

The woman is to be the "man's" help meet or his helper in all that he does, and pray for him and be a loving wife and help him in his ministry and all he does in the home.

Gen. 2:18 - And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

I believe she is to be his aide in life, and this, raising the kids & spreading the gospel is her LIFE's work -- in the home and in life.

Sorry my paragraphs were so wacky... the site was acting a bit weird tonight & made them go like that. 

Thanks for your thoughts Dawn, I didn't so much have questions about your thoughts but really appreciate hearing different perspectives and it is interesting to see how your experiences and observations have led you to view things as you do.

I feel so ridiculously silly about the meet help/meat help thing. If I'd read it out loud I would have heard it right away, but instead of the adjective 'meet' I was picturing some sort of 'meat', I was wondering if a 'help meat' meant like a meat in a side dish rather than a main course or something and thought it might have been a strange metaphor... yeah, I know, my mind is a bit bizarre at times.

By the way, I think that that verse is another one that we tend to downplay the significance of in modern terms as well. Again, it isn't a fault on the translator's part, it's simply that in English we don't have the same vocabulary as Hebrew so the meaning can never be perfect without understanding where it comes from. In this case, we hear that a woman is to be a 'meet help' or 'suitable help' and picture nice but rather mundane and quaint activities; like tidying up a bit and keeping things neat. However, the Hebrew word used is 'ezer' which can fairly be translated as 'help' but in a more critical way than we might thing, rather than being mundane 'helpful' little things it is more about aid or assistance that is direly needed or relief/succor from great suffering. This word, ezer, is further used throughout the OT to describe critical help that only God can give (in Exodus, Deuteronomy, several times in Psalms and in various books of the prophets), such as in delivering Israel out of Egypt or God being a 'help and shield' to His people.

In this way, along with Genesis 2:24 - "For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh" - we see that the 'help' that is being created in woman isn't just doing nice things to make life a little easier for a man, but that God was creating a partner; man can't get by without woman nor woman without man.

In this way, I think it is good to remember not to let this 'help' mean too little to us. To take you for example Dawn, you speak of the woman's role involving making sure the man comes home to "the house as tidy as possible and dinner on the table -- along w/ a warm, loving greeting from his wife" and I don't want to downplay this, these are great things that you do out of a desire to serve your husband and God according to His will. But honestly, if this is all that it means to help one could conclude that the wife isn't that important or necessary. You don't use it in these terms, but when you speak of praying with and the two of you determining how to live your life and practice your faith you're showing a partnership wherein working together and helping each other you achieve a life that is closer to God's will than either of you could alone.

It's kinda funny that we still struggle with equality when God showed us something so 'progressive' about the importance of men and women together right from the beginning.

@Merciful and @Dawn, thank you two for your insights into this topic.  It is always good to get different opinions because it makes us think and then go and study and pray about the issue.  Personally I don't believe that virtuous woman was only working out of the home... she goes out and buys fields and then plants them... definitely away from the home.  I believe that if you are doing something for God, then it is the right thing to do.  Dawn, if you stay at home to be a help "meet" for your husband, and you do it for God, then it's the right thing.  And if another woman goes out and helps make extra money for food because her husband has asked her to, and she is doing it trying also to be a help meet unto him, then it is also the right thing because she does it for God.

@Merciful  Sorry for the misspelling of help meet.  I didn't realize I had even spelled it wrong, lol.  Your imagery of actual meat had me chuckling.  What are your thoughts on some of the other topics on the forum?  It is interesting to hear a different perspective on the issues at hand.

@ other forum members, do you have anything to add to this topic?  What are your thoughts?  Now is your chance to tell us what you think!

Interesting.  But don't forget that the Bible says: 1Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

It's not that men are better than woman, but this is the hierarchy, or the role that God has given men and women.

There are numerous examples throughout the Bible of the man being the head of the family, and the woman being the head of the house, in other words keeping the house and children, and when the man is away she is head of the family until he returns.  The man is still head of the family though, just as he is the head of the woman.

Great topic.

Oh, I love 1 Corinthians so much! As Paul addresses the issues he's become aware of about the faithful in Corinth we get a deeper view into the life of the first generation of the Christian community than anywhere else in the New Testament. We get to see some of the strengths and weaknesses, the struggles and triumphs, of a small community trying to figure out their new way of life surrounded by the pressures of life in a big city, something I think is still very relevant to Christians today as technology makes the world more and more just one big city.

It's interesting in the chapter that you quoted from Tayman, because in 1 Corinthians 11 Paul is obviously very concerned about the immodesty that the women are showing (they are worshiping with their heads uncovered when in their society only very loose women would appear publicly in that manner) because he shoots off arguments from all sorts of sources (one of them being the model you quoted) and my only disappointment is that he seems to be short on space to and doesn't elaborate on any of them and he finally has to just sum it up and press home by appealing to their sense of traditional Greek propriety in verse 16 so that he can move onto addressing an even more serious issue in the second half of the chapter (allowing unequal and un-brotherly  treatment of each other during the Lord's Supper, reminding them very severely of its meanings and implications in verses 17 to 34).

Anyways, I bring this up because fortunately, Paul does have time to elaborate on this hierarchy that you've brought up in Ephesians 5:21-33. I love it because not only does he get showing both the hierarchy (v21 - Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord) as well as the dependence of man and woman on each other by hearkening back to Genesis (v31 - For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh); but he gets to show this beautiful comparison about how the divine institute of marriage has always existed so that we can better understand the love of Christ for his church (explaining why the Gospels labor to present Christ and the Church as a bridegroom and bride); showing how a woman should give herself fully to her husband and serve him as the church does to Christ and how the husband should give himself lovingly and self-sacrificially to his wife just as Christ did for the church.

@Merciful... I'm sorry, but I think I missed your point in that last post.  Can you explain what it was more briefly?  Thank you.